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Question: Does Gail have a case against Derek?  (Voting closed: June 30, 2009, 11:43:40 AM)
Yes - 29 (85.3%)
No - 5 (14.7%)
Total Voters: 34

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Author Topic: Now curling champ sues coach who dropped her like a stone  (Read 5404 times)
gmcurl
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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2009, 09:03:29 PM »

Who leaked the Conduct Panel's decision to the media?
Who leaked this story to the media?

On the face of it, it sounds like claim and counter claim. Sandy Morton said in his post of 13th May in another thread that “Gail is too honest and honourable to have to "leak" comments” so I would exclude her as a suspect.

However, I’m sure all anyone has to do to assess the actions and behaviour of all parties is to read the Vernon Report, however grim the content for some.

What Sandy actually said was
Gail is too honest and honourable to have to "leak" comments - she merely says what she thinks is right and tells it as it is.

So, Boss Hogg and all other interested parties, let's tell it as it is!  Look away now if you don't like the truth!

As far as I was concerned there was never any question of ‘leaking’ the Conduct Panels letter.  After establishing with my lawyer that there was no restriction in place that explicitly detailed that I couldn’t, and I’ll explain what I mean by this later, I gave the Conduct Panels letter to Bob Cowan.

In order to understand where we are at the moment you have to have a fairly reasonable understanding of the RCCC Ethics Manual and the processes described therein.  To say that we are guinea pigs would be an understatement.  At every stage of every process we have been through the Ethics Manual has been tested to its limits and that is basically what is happening here!

The processes within the Ethics Manual fall under certain headings, and one process cannot seem to take place without the preceding one having been tested fully!

STATEMENT OF ETHICS
(Very basically the Etiquette section of the Rules)

POLICY & PROCEEDURES FOR DEALING WITH THE CONDUCT OF PARTICIPANTS
Introduction
Application
Complaint
Screening
Investigation
Hearing
Sanctions

Automatic Sanction
Delegation
Appeals Procedure

THE RCCC APPEALS POLICY
Scope of the Appeal
Grounds for the Appeal
Screening of the appeal
Appeal on the record
Panel
The Record
Procedures for the hearing
Appeal Decision
Timelines
Jurisdiction

Etc, etc

Having followed each procedure to the letter, over the last 14 months, it was with great disappointment that I received the Conduct Panels decision not to pursue to a Formal Hearing the complaint that I had made against the National Coach. (I think I can safely say this as Derek Brown made it clear that he did not wish to appeal this decision, he only wished to appeal/challenge the Conduct Panels right to have an opinion!)

Now this is the crux of the situation; you will notice that Sanctions comes after Hearing and paragraph 28.  (No publication of a decision or sanction shall take place until the time for appeal has expired or an appeal has been decided.) falls under the heading Sanction!!  It was my understanding, and my lawyers, that because the Conduct Panel had not proceeded to a formal hearing as required of it under the heading Hearing, Paragraphs 19 -21, that we were not required to instigate Paragraph 28 and therefore, there could be no embargo on the decision of the Conduct Panel.

Derek Brown’s lawyer decided that the Conduct Panels opinions were severely damaging to Mr Browns professional reputation and decided to appeal.  He then argues that by making the opinions of the Conduct Panel public before he had had the opportunity to appeal them that we/I were in breach of the Ethics Manual for failing to comply with the terms of it! (Par 28) 

Bring on Complaint #2 from Derek against Gail & Lyndsay and the threat of legal action against the Conduct Panel for having the opinion, the Carrick Gazette, Bob Cowan and whoever disclosed it to them for making it public.

Despite the RCCC not following their own procedures with regard to complaint #2 we have filed our response, similar to the points made above etc, etc and await the Responsible Officers decision firstly on screening, (Par 9) and then we will take it from there!

So it would seem that I have kept my mouth shut for 14 months just to trip up on a technicality at the final hurdle!  Common sense will hopefully prevail.

As for the Scottish Mail on Sunday, as I said to their reporter when she called on Friday with a story she had 'picked up' from the Edinburgh News Desk (whatever that is) ‘No comment’  Knowing that they were running the story I did purchase a copy and can confirm that it was in the 'Scottish Edition'.  I also did a search on line but could find nothing. 

It would appear that if you are logged in and go to the actual post through the thread, as oposed to just the recent posts, then you can see the .jpeg attachment of the article.  Click on it to enlarge it or email me for a 1mb .pdf alternative!
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hoglinewamphray
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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2009, 10:40:45 PM »

As Editor of the Scottish Curler for seven years it was my policy to try to inform the curlers of Scotland what was happening within the sport. It has been my experience that it is the Royal Club's 'policy' NOT to divulge what is happening, particularly when it comes to embarrassing or sensitive issues. The Royal Club would rather these are not openly talked about. Understandably so. But this is an organisation that exists for its members, who have the right, I suggest, to be told the facts of any and every matter, presented in an impartial way.

During the past year it was very difficult to build up a picture of what was happening post Vernon, and it was only because I obtained information from all sorts of sources that I was able to find out a little of what was going on, and I published this information in an honest fashion, and I hope an impartial one, in the magazine, and on the blog.

There are those who just hope that Vernon will all go quietly away. I get blamed for being a 'stirrer'! So be it. I am just sorry that I am no longer the editor of the magazine, and can no longer fight for the openness and transparency that I believe should exist within the corridors of the organisations (RCCC, WCF, ECF, BC) that represent our sport.

I am now retired, and my career as 'an investigating curling journalist' is over, not that I was ever very effective! But hopefully there will be others with a similar view to mine who will campaign for an open future. I hope so, and I wish them well.

Bob
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JohnMinnaar
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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2009, 06:23:48 AM »

Yes, Bob, you are definitely a stirrer! And Gail is definitely refusing to lie down and stink, as any good dog would. And I will support you both, because what happened post Vernon is certainly not curling. That will no doubt make me a stirrer too.....
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Sandy Morton
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« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2009, 08:05:24 AM »

Me too - and I think, unless anyone knows different, that I will phone the office today to ask if Vernon is going to be reported on and open for discussion or will we/I have to ask for it as AOCB?

There will be no other comments from me until after 5.00pm as I am working today - anyone else get headhunted at 67 Grin - and although I will be able to read the Forum I will be unable to post.
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Boss Hog
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« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2009, 12:56:06 PM »

gmcurl,

You seem to be under some misapprehension that the law has something to do with justice.

However, as Sandy said, you clearly have a propensity to tell it as it is based on what you think is right.

I’m sure it is of little consolation but having read your summation of recent events I’m persuaded by your argument and can better appreciate your frustration with the process.

Thanks for taking the time to put it.
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gmcurl
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« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2009, 01:48:26 PM »

gmcurl,

You seem to be under some misapprehension that the law has something to do with justice.


Boss Hog

I'm not sure where you get that idea from as nothing I mentioned in my post refered to justice and the law.  I simply explainded the processes that the RCCC have in place which, as far as i'm aware have no standing in our Law Courts.

It seems increasingly too much to expect but all I have asked for is that those involved with this situation should stand up and accept responsibility for their actions.  As becomes increasingly clearer with every passing day that the RCCC processes are inadequate and it may be that in order to get closure for everyone I will have to take my chances and seek justice through our judicial system.
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JohnMinnaar
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« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2009, 02:30:00 PM »

All I have asked for is that those involved with this situation should stand up and accept responsibility for their actions.  As becomes increasingly clearer with every passing day that the RCCC processes are inadequate and it may be that in order to get closure for everyone I will have to take my chances and seek justice through our judicial system.

That is the bottom line, the heart of the matter. A governing body should govern, or they will lose the job. Oh, just wait till I get going on the "new" plans for the NCA.....
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« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2009, 05:18:13 PM »

get a new thread going then John.

GMcurl - i think most can sympathise with you - a process that takes more than a year to reach any kind of conclusion just has to be wrong and in needing of a complete revamp.

more power to your elbow if you force this to happen.
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« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2009, 08:24:33 PM »

The story doesn't appear on the Daily Mail's website and doesn't appear to have been picked up by any other papers.  Huh

I thought you said the story hadn't been picked up!!  Grin

Headlines on Page 1 of The Scottish Daily Mail, Monday 1st June (see attachment)

THE VULTURES CIRCLE BROWN
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Lottie
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« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2009, 11:35:27 PM »

get a new thread going then John.

GMcurl - i think most can sympathise with you - a process that takes more than a year to reach any kind of conclusion just has to be wrong and in needing of a complete revamp.

more power to your elbow if you force this to happen.

That will be the whole legal system then given how many years cases can drag on!!!   Cheesy Grin Tongue
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JohnMinnaar
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« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2009, 06:17:51 AM »

A little caution here, please. The RCCC did its best as a governing body and the Vernon Report was to me at least quite clear about the causes of the mess. Unfortunately the RCCC is at the receiving end of what is now essentially a direct confrontation between coach and player(s). If the law, or legal advice, prohibits the RCCC from saying or doing anything, there is very little the RCCC can do about it.

This does not excuse the fact that this matter could have been cleared up on the day in Vernon, and should have been!
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« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2009, 10:27:34 AM »

A little caution here, please. The RCCC did its best as a governing body and the Vernon Report was to me at least quite clear about the causes of the mess. Unfortunately the RCCC is at the receiving end of what is now essentially a direct confrontation between coach and player(s). If the law, or legal advice, prohibits the RCCC from saying or doing anything, there is very little the RCCC can do about it.

This does not excuse the fact that this matter could have been cleared up on the day in Vernon, and should have been!

Is this the same guy who said in a post yersterday  "A governing body should govern, or they will lose the job."Huh

John are you now saying that the job they did with the Vernon situation was/is good enough? 

You say that the Vernon report was quite clear about the cause but yet it is ok for the RCCC Board not to act and remain neutral?

I agree with your first comment that 'A governing body should govern'.

Neutrality is no way to govern.  Roll Eyes
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JohnMinnaar
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« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2009, 10:37:12 AM »

Yes, it's the same guy. The last line of my post says:

This does not excuse the fact that this matter could have been cleared up on the day in Vernon, and should have been!

What I am trying to point out is that the RCCC can well feel satisfied that they have done everything they could and can to deal with this matter, and it was not easy. Now, after the report has been issued, there is a new development beyond their jurisdiction, which is a matter between coach and player(s).

Where the RCCC has failed and is failing, is that it did not and does not yet have the mechanisms in place to deal with matters such as these swiftly and fairly. This reflects the changing world of curling and the new elite structure, over which the RCCC has little control, yet. Blame them for their shortcomings, but not for a legal argument between coach and player(s).
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jjk
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« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2009, 09:26:20 PM »

I feel we are finally getting to the crux of the vernon issue.
The issues surrounding this "event" really go to the heart of world curling in the olympic age.
What are the lines of responsibilty? My thoughts on curling champions is clear. Curling teams get to become national champions by managing themselves. Once they become national champions they should be given ALL the backup and support their association can muster. Team changes should only happen at the behest of the TEAM.
However this is not the way Scottish/British curling has operated. Were Gail and Lindsay wronged? Unquestionably Yes, very badly wronged.  I am not here to apologise for derek brown but what is the case against him? A lot of inuendo by those in power? He dropped a player. Not unprecedented, indeed more and more it is the norm. Maybe he didnt communicate it properly. Is that in his remit? He misinformed the media allegedly. Should he have been put in this position? Should the coach not also be protected in this situation. Is he too not an employee? Maybe media training and a spokesman should be in place. Does it take £30,000 to come to this conclusion.
There are many questions here and the players have been seriously wronged. But where is the culpability? I think the SIS, BC and RCCC must face questions. They must be able to deal with events like this better. Many thought I was joking when I said there needed to be an inquiry into the inquiry.But really what was the point of it? That is a genuine question for your AGM which cannot come under sub judice.  All the money, all the reforms, all the costitution redrafts yet an internal investigation depends on the vice president of the RCCC not being connected to any of the parties involved! Is this ever likely. At best this seems to have been a £30,000 error by someone. Could an EGM not have changed this?
The relationship between curlers and their respective associations is in question. National champions cannot be treated in such a way. Apologies to Gail and Linsay should have been made a year ago. Employees cannot be hung out to dry, as I fear DB has.  Scotland/GB needs to give a lead to the rest of Europe and I fear things are only looking like dragging on for a while yet.
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lonegunmen
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« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2009, 09:27:44 AM »

Agree with a lot of JJK post, big mistakes were made by a number of parties.  Some more big questions to be asked and could be some serious answers. 

If/when the case comes to court and if GM wins then what will this mean for the National coach in future? what will it mean for players in the future?  Will it change the whole way teams are supported or picked?
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