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Author Topic: Vernon Report  (Read 6785 times)
rssmater
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« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2009, 12:59:42 PM »
Sandy

Here again I would say that there was a lack of preparation and planning before Vernon that DB cannot take full responsibility for. If there had been discussion of all parties including the team coach and perhaps the team captain prior to leaving for Vernon then a lot of the misunderstandings that ensued could have been avoided.

It would have given the chance for two way commmunication from the top down and also allowed the team to have had some upward input and the result would have been some form of consensus.
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LG
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« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2009, 02:44:28 PM »
Wheres Gramacho on all this!? haha!


Sitting in the wings quietly eh?
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gorth
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« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2009, 04:07:22 PM »
£15,000 for 100+ pages and no answers?  (Well sorry the answers are there but are lawyer speaked away from being atagorically stated.)  Focus on that £15,000 though that's £1+ of each of our subs, a years salary for a development officer, a whole years funding of the Curling's Cool Scheme, the budget requirements of a Scottish Curler Editor to keep going...........all of which could have happened if the RCCC had not been so gutless and not kept the resolution of this matter in-house.   If it had of been done in house and closer to the actual events happening perhaps the memories would have been clearer of the events that happened, especially those that were/are transcripted!

I think its ironic that someone without the indepth knowledge of all the facts but a knowledge of those involved could take a stab, and a fairly acurate one at that, prior to the release of the report!

Shame on you RCCC I hope the membership appear at the AGM in droves this year to ask questions about your handling of the whole affair.  Especially the infamous posts that were on the website.  I take it Gail and Lyndsey got written apologies from the CEO for those?
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jjk
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« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2009, 05:15:44 PM »
Has there ever been a bigger waste of money than the vernon report. Please revisit posts on this site last april for the conclusions. Can i have £15k please.

1. It is obvious to me that 5 mins after a team wins the scottish championship, they are not (as some assert) team scotland but they are in fact "team olympic GB point gatherer". (This is not derek browns fault it is the fault of the curling associations and (mainly) the players that they have decided to meekly accept that your national champions are not to be trusted and whatever they have done to win the championship can be discarded and they must march to a different tune with different masters. It is a scandal considering all the other pressures of representing "your country" that additional pressures you have not been exposed to previously such as video debriefs, line management structures etc. are thrust upon you. The back-up team should be just that, there to back up and support your national champions).

2. with regard to point 1 above I think the tab for an investigation into why 3 players took to the ice should therefore be picked up by SIS and BCA. I really resent my sub helping to pay for this.

3. Someone at the agm should seriously call for an investigation into this investigation. The remit for any investigation by the rccc should have been to look at the relationship between the BCA, SIS  and your national champions and the impact this has on domestic curling.             
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« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2009, 05:54:35 PM »
Quote from: LG on March 08, 2009, 02:44:28 PM
Wheres Gramacho on all this!? haha!


Sitting in the wings quietly eh?

Has Gramacho gone over to the "Dark Side"?
or is it that he was the only person they could find (in real life & on the forum) that doesnt see that the current selection system is not good for our our domestic game!
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Sandy Morton
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« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2009, 05:59:33 PM »
It is possible that he wishes to refrain from comment since he is on one of the Committees mentioned in Bob Taits statement.

Or he might just be away.
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« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2009, 06:23:40 PM »
Quote from: LG on March 08, 2009, 02:44:28 PM
Wheres Gramacho on all this!? haha!


Sitting in the wings quietly eh?

Quote from: LG on April 07, 2008, 12:43:08 PM
In response to Hammy's post quoting me, I'd like to apologise for what was an unwarranted knee-jerk reaction to the initial publicised facts. 

L G

p.s squeaky clean yourself hammy!?  Wink
A year older a year wiser!!!

Where is LG on all this?   Cheesy

We heard your knee-jerk reaction but haven't heard your informed opinion yet!  Grin
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rssmater
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« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2009, 07:08:12 PM »
Quote from: rssmater on March 07, 2009, 04:35:14 PM
There was Zero planning  and absolutely no evidence of any skill in people management.  He didn't make any effort to get to know his team & his communication with all parties was horrendous.

It seems obvious that from very early in the tournament he was aware of serious issues. He did not react to this in any way , there is no evidence that anyone recorded details of any meetings or discussions or agreed actions, surely a basic principle in management of any situation!!!

If he was employed by any self respecting company at a high level of mangement  HE would be facing serious allegations of incompetence adequate to result in severe disciplinary action .

I hope this is the view of the SIS and as soon as possible!


I've just reread my original posting I have to say I displayed a bit of a "knee jerk reaction"...sorry to anyone I may have offended!

Having considered things it strikes me that SIS have to bear some of the responsibility. I ask the question in his 2 years with SIS did they ever assess  HIS training needs in key areas of management including conflict resolution and communication?
It is often said that the "Buck stops at the top" we should perhaps look above Derek to apportion blame!

After all managing a bunch of strong, passionate commited ladies would test the skills of the best of managers!!

If the RCCC does take direct responsibility for the National Coach they need to take this under consideration!
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Horse
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« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2009, 10:08:11 PM »
Hi - only just read through the report.  Only 2 points to add;

- there is no mention of leadership or indeed the complete lack of it
- if this was a commercial organisation the shareholders would have sold up and the whole thing put into administration

Cheers. H.
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Lottie
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« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2009, 10:41:57 PM »
Quote from: lonegunmen on March 07, 2009, 12:37:36 PM
Quote from: voila on March 07, 2009, 11:34:52 AM
Quote from: Lottie on March 06, 2009, 04:55:23 PM
In my opinion don’t put yourself forward to play for the Scottish title if you are not prepared to be Team Scotland and focus on the responsibilities that come with it.  It is competitive sport, there is no place for the childish behaviour that went on. They are adults and things should have been dealt with in a mature manner.

Hello Lottie, welcome back from under your stone. It's quite intriguing to try and work out where you are coming from. At what stage did any of the players behave childishly? I didn't see any mention of that in the 102 pages. In my opinion, and it seems Curling Today's opinion, neither of the girls refused to play for their country. The National Coach decided to play with three players. He had plenty of opportunity to correct that and chose not to. Neither of them were asked to return to the ice. How does that have any bearing on whether the players are prepared to play for their country or not. You've obviously made your mind up and have totally disregarded the plain facts.

I read it another way, that the vice said she was not going to play with a different skip so refused to play.  Given that the team was on 8 straight loses u have to look at doing something different! They did something different with only 3 players and started winning! Think faults on both sides and no one comes out of it looking good.

Voila, thanks for the welcome back, I have actually never been away, I read a lot but don't post very often. And yes there was childish behaviour and I am not the only one to see it lonegunmen sees it too Smiley
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strathydoug
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« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2009, 08:49:56 AM »
Quote from: lonegunmen on March 07, 2009, 12:37:36 PM

I read it another way, that the vice said she was not going to play with a different skip so refused to play.  Given that the team was on 8 straight loses u have to look at doing something different! They did something different with only 3 players and started winning! Think faults on both sides and no one comes out of it looking good.

I think this is an interesting aspect lonegunmen brings up.  On one hand it could be read in the way that he has interpreted it, on the other hand it could be read in a completely different way, like many other posters. 

Given the level of feeling on this issue slinging mud around the forum at each other much less the participants, as seems to be happening, and I single no party out in this seems to achieve very little.

My own interpretation of the facts, well I don't see the point in adding more and more layers to an already confusing "debate"
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Doug
LG
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« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2009, 11:18:46 AM »
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Where is LG on all this?   Cheesy

We heard your knee-jerk reaction but haven't heard your informed opinion yet!  Grin

Thanks for that Huh!  I wont be commenting because I haven't and won't be reading the report.  I read Bob's report of the report and that's good enough for me.  I just want to know what the results are! 

I was just implying Gramacho isn't involved because of his new role. I think thats fair enough!
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Robin Copland
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« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2009, 11:55:06 AM »
I was out the country all last week and pretty tied up during the weekend was all.

None of the parties involved set out to get involved in the Third World War, but circumstances led to consequences led to decisions led to fall outs led to mis-communication led to more fall outs.

There you go - 101 pages precised to two lines.

Flippancy aside, I feel genuinely sorry for all involved.  We should not forget that there have been many sleepless nights spent pondering Vernon and all its ramifications by the parties involved.  It has not been a happy time for them.
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david
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« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2009, 11:53:07 AM »
I've read the report. Nothing in it contradicts my view that this is a game for four people who trust and like one another. The more coaches, nutritionists, psycho-whatevers you add the further away you get from the game of curling. Whatever the conclusions (or lack of them) in the report about what went on in Vernon it was not, by my understanding, curling.

Does "success" in International competitions merit changing the game the way we have at the elite level?  I don't think so. Does having an "elite level" further the game?  I know of no evidence to support this. It may further the careers of indivduals, in particular the support staff - but how many extra curlers do we have because of "success" at international level? Is anyone counting or am I missing the point?

Selection of the team by other than the team itself must always risk the unpleasentness we have read about at great length.  Indeed the whole concept of a "team" is undermined by this introduction of selection, layers of coaches, contracts etc.

ITS JUST A GAME, ITS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN. I better stop typing before I get too grumpy.........
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JohnMinnaar
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« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2009, 04:16:13 PM »
Quote from: david on March 11, 2009, 11:53:07 AM
Does "success" in International competitions merit changing the game the way we have at the elite level?  I don't think so. Does having an "elite level" further the game?  I know of no evidence to support this. It may further the careers of indivduals, in particular the support staff - but how many extra curlers do we have because of "success" at international level? Is anyone counting or am I missing the point?

Selection of the team by other than the team itself must always risk the unpleasantness we have read about at great length.  Indeed the whole concept of a "team" is undermined by this introduction of selection, layers of coaches, contracts etc.

Very accurate observations, david. They might not change the world, but they are to the point and make tremendous sense.
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